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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics I am not sure if this is a hot take or not, and I am not willing to die on this hill (so please prove me wrong if you'd like), but naively, I'd say:

If a system of morals and ethics is followed, which prioritizes harm reduction and maximizing happiness et cetera; for any arbitrary matter, dispute or problem, the ends justify the means, if the means inherently have their own "ends" (through consequences and perhaps the butterfly effect), which are also considered by evaluation through the same morals and ethics

am i even coherent
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Maxx (she/her) @JezebelTheApocryphal@infosec.exchange
9mo
@star so the ends justify the means is moral as long as the means are all moral? doesnt say anything, at least the way im reading it
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
@JezebelTheApocryphal Well, I think this line of argumentation justifies things like shoplifting from big supermarket chains, compared to one that would say "the means justify the ends"
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Maxx (she/her) @JezebelTheApocryphal@infosec.exchange
9mo
@star theres just not a foundation of an argument here, its a tautology. "if i think what i do is moral, then my actions are justified" is just moral relativism.

and if we focus on the second part of the first post, where you said we must analyze each of the means under the same moral framework as the original ends, then it no longer holds that the "ends justify the means". instead, the chosen moral framework is justifying each action individually, which is often the outcome of this line of thinking in my experience
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
@JezebelTheApocryphal What you're saying makes a lot of sense neocat_laptop_owo Thank you :3
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Maxx (she/her) @JezebelTheApocryphal@infosec.exchange
9mo
@star sorry didnt mean to go off on u, i just like debating philosophy neodog_laugh_nervous
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
@JezebelTheApocryphal Nono, I'm thankful for what you wrote and I took no offense from it at all! espeon_love
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SpyCrab @spycrab@kolektiva.social
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star I would propose: one must have a rigid set of rules (call it logic or morals or whatever it's a set of rules) and each action that one takes must be allowed by those rules. In this way no intermediary step my break the rules so hypothetically no means could ever be bad enough to worry if they justify the ends.

In practice this is ridiculously hard to do. I think kant kinda did this to idk. Also I might be saying the same thing as you idk.
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @spycrab I think you are at least something similar to what I am saying, but I am just an eepy little meow meow typing silly things with my paws

But I like the way you phrased it! :3
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SpyCrab @spycrab@kolektiva.social
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star this whole platform is cooked, lol.

Be a good little kitty and go eepy you need your strength to meme on the little gay people in your phone ;3c
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @spycrab okeiieiiiiiiii if you say so :3333333333 neocat_angel neocat_angel neocat_angel
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SpyCrab @spycrab@kolektiva.social
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star good kitty
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @spycrab mrooowwww!!! :333
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space slut boost_ok @spacekatia@girlcock.club
9mo
re: hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star the main pushback we have is that with this mindset is possible to convince yourself that there is an ends that will justify any and all means, or short of that, that hypothetical benefits justify actual harm done

but i guess motivated reasoning can be applied to other paradigms as well so dunno
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space slut boost_ok @spacekatia@girlcock.club
9mo
re: hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star (in our opinion 'the ends don't justify the means' is a warning against cost-benefit analyses where the benefit is much less likely than the cost to others)
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space slut boost_ok @spacekatia@girlcock.club
9mo
re: hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star (sometimes we think of it as borrowing moral integrity from the future, but that's a good way to go morally bankrupt

but thinking about "doing the right thing" in terms of financial transactions seems wrong too, even if the metaphor is intuitive)
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space slut boost_ok @spacekatia@girlcock.club
9mo
re: hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star (mostly thinking about the rationalist/effective altruism guys that seem to have convinced themselves that ai will either punish them so fucking bad for not building it or will reward everyone so excessively for building it that they have to build their machine-god no matter the environmental or human harm they cause in doing so)
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celeste_hearts_lesbianceleste_hearts_transceleste_hearts_demisexual flori_ava_star:~cursor_blinking @star@amazonawaws.com
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics Tl;DR: If you have good morals and consider the consequences of your actions, the ends justify the means
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a3‽ ⚙️🌌🃏(it/ey/she) @h33h33wuffi3@plush.city
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star wuffy looks at it more like
wuffy is here to reduce harm and create joy
it is going to act in ways that facilitate that and it is going to avoid doing things that go counter to that
on a case by case basis this must be determined. there's not really a moral code of ethics that it can abide to because no moral code can predict the inherent unpredictability of life. they are simply guidelines to help u make a decision. they cannot decide for you
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a3‽ ⚙️🌌🃏(it/ey/she) @h33h33wuffi3@plush.city
9mo
hot take(??), debating morals and ethics @star everything else is just methodology and specifics
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